I really enjoyed that! Thank you for the conversation.
Once you have allergies, is there any way to reverse the process? Is there a way to diminish the response, as it doesn't seem possible for me to avoiding allergens such as trees and grasses? If I am plagued with seasonal allergies and asthma, is there an avenue to restore balance to the system? I'd love your insights on this.
In terms of management, a really key thing is removing allergens from the mucosa as much as possible, which is why nasal lavage is useful, especially before sleep. And you don't want to be very allergic for a lot of the time, so regular consistent antihistamine use is very important too.
You're asking about how to regain tolerance, though. I don't know how it happens, though I know it can. I used to be very allergic to horses (I was very allergic to all animals, which sucks if you want to be a veterinarian). I spent two summers running a horse-trekking business in Iceland. The first, I had to be on antihistamines all the time. The second, I tapered my antihistamines and, for some reason, my allergy went and never recurred. But it was very specific to horses - I'm still allergic to cats!
It could have been a microbiome thing that helped - at the time, I was spending all my time outside working with animals in a very different microbiological environment from that I was used to. Fermented foods seem to reduce allergic response: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213453022001896
It also might have been an exposure thing. Similarly, I'm allergic to rabbits, but I become tolerant to my own. And when I'm not continually exposed to them, I lose that tolerance. So coming back from travelling, I was allergic again to the same rabbits I had when I left, but the allergies diminished and disappeared over time. That's tricky with seasonal allergies.
Do you know what you're allergic to? You can have an allergen panel response test to see. You could then try very controlled small-dose exposure in the fall and winter to see if that reduces your response in the summer?
Thanks Guen, The mysteries of the body...we know so little about the wonders of the thing we call our Self!
I've run through some of the current research but it seems we don't know much about remediation in the context of allergies. I had scratch tests when I was younger but I should get them done again. My strongest reactions come from grasses and trees (and cats - subversive little creatures!), so micro-dosing is hard as the trees spaff all over the place with little regard for my sensitivities. I just don't like taking antihistamines daily for months at a time (or any pharm. interventions). My guess is that there's a pathway for improvement, because our other systems are plastic and can be improved, but we haven't cracked that nut yet. Much of the focus I found was on strengthening immune systems which, albeit connected, feels like a parallel system; but that's just my lay hunch.
Crazy with your horses and bunnies! Proof of concept for recovery, but hard to pin down the method.
My dear friend, who is an arborist and urban planner, mentioned that there's a gender imbalance - 'biological sexism' - in urban trees. He explained that many of the trees that are planted are male because they are less messy, not producing fruit and tend to grow faster. This results in strong competition for the females and crazy pollen release - horny as. (Allergy-Free Gardening: The Revolutionary Guide to Healthy Landscaping, Tom Ogren, 2000). Of course, many trees are hermaphrodites, so perhaps at best a contributing factor.
I hadn't thought about the male tree bias! Thanks for sharing!
Agreed - the body usually finds ways to fix itself unless something is getting in the way. I think the seasonality may be working against you here, so I wonder whether you can use the in-between-pollen time to try some exposure therapy. I bet you can buy types of pollen and try microdosing in between times. I've heard that eating local honey or pollen from bees ('bee bread') may help, which would suggest that you might be able to get some tolerance through a different exposure route?
Thanks for that. Yes, I've heard about the bees as well and eat a lot of local honey (I think Poland's has some of the best in the world!). I've only seen bee pollen here, but I'd love to try the bee bread. It looks great! True that my allergies are less aggressive in the tropics.
I've never tried a neti pot before but it looks like fun. I've known about them because I lived in India for a while, but for some reason never really found my way to trying one. I think I'll go with neti pots and bee bread this year (sounds like a book :-)
Washing out the nose has such a rapid effect on allergic symptoms. When your nose is running all the time, it feels like the mucus should be removing the allergens quickly, but washing is far more effective.
A colleague used to work in the Middle East. She saw people washing sand out of their noses by gulping water into their mouths and squirting it through their nose.
My partner and I spent an evening trying to replicate this. We gulped water with our heads in all sorts of positions.
I managed to get an unconvincing drop of water out of my nose.
My partner turned to me with an expression of doom. "Guen, I've lost the last gulp of water somewhere inside my head. I don't know where it's gone."
Two hours later, the water suddenly poured from his nose, out of the sinus he'd accidentally filled...
Haha...that's a great story. I'd love to learn how to do that. I think I'm going to try to practice that one.
I have a long history of experimenting with myself with the aim of understanding and self-improvement. Not long ago, after considering the structure of my dog's back feet, I wondered if we weren't meant to be walking on the balls of our feet as well, with our heels elevated; it seemed to me that the calves would store more potential energy and the elevated heel would offer more bounce. I walked and jogged every day for about two weeks before I ran out of steam. I still think it's a good idea, but probably would need to be trained like that from childhood. I wonder how that would alter mobility if someone trained that way their entire life.
I'm glad to know that! My mom seemed to think that ec was a total flop (null hypothesis "babies can't learn not to pee on the floor" confirmed) but I had a great time and I swear I could feel the appreciation of his pelvic floor muscles, though I didn't know there was data to confirm that.
Do you think your kids were particularly prepared for daycare because of the culturally informed way you raised them?
Thanks for the explanation! I've been kind of anxious about allergy testing.
EC helps them learn how to fully void their bladder and empty their bowel at a much younger age, so seems to help them toilet train without the leaking every half hour or so. Definitely worth doing in any amount. :)
I have no idea about the preparation for daycare. To be honest, it wasn't financially feasible for me to stay home, not did I want to, and in many parts of the world, even very young children spend many hours a day with people who are not their parents. Us humans are very good at justifying the choices that we have to make! :D
Wow, you clearly make more breast milk than I ever did! I didn't even make enough to feed them! :D
There's evidence for breast milk's immunological effects in various skin conditions - diaper dermatitis and eczema. I've used it for conjunctivitis.
I'd use it on damaged skin and it might benefit healthy skin, especially if a child has eczema in other places. I'm not sure how much benefit you'd get on completely healthy skin. I'd be more inclined to use the breastmilk neat on lesions though, rather than diluting it.
Once-weekly bathing of any type, especially in an older baby, is unlikely to harm the skin. But if I had a baby with dry skin or eczema, I'd be inclined to skip the whole-body bathing and apply breastmilk topically.
Oh yes, I'm an overproducer and I donate, too. I found articles about breastmilk baths and I follow the directions there and they also quote a study about them being good for eczema. My baby is fine for now but I just don't want to throw away the leftover milk from feedings (I directly nurse but husband does one night feeding and I'm also back at work). We also do a regular bath once a week. We used to do once a week with water only as a newborn.
I occasionally spray my baby (not intentionally), not sure if that counts as applying milk directly to skin. She's not a fan
Wow that's amazing! I totally see why you don't want to throw them away - and this seems a reasonable use!
I'm giggling at your last comment and remembering trying to spray milk into my toddlers eyes, with her squinting and opening her mouth in the hope it would go in there!
This is so interesting! I can definitely attest that ec helps with diaper rash. I wasn't a super successful ecer--my baby peed often in diapers and often on the floor--but he never got diaper rash and he basically decided to switch to toileting himself. So I'd highly reccomend any mother try ec because even failure is pretty great.
However I am sure a big reason babies are put in diapers is to go to childcare. Even little spurts of diaper free time require a caretaker who had some degree of familiarity and chill.
This may be a dumb question, but is the prick test for allergies a little counterproductive?
There's enough evidence now to suggest that, for lowered risk of bladder and bowel problems, 'successful' EC means any EC. I totally agree! There's no point setting a very high bar, because just doing some gives so many benefits.
Childcare is a challenge, though my daughter's nursery lead was the one who suggested we stopped nappies when she was 18mo or so, before we thought we could. And the others, who went to daycare from aged 1, didn't seem to suffer a setback. My youngest had to be dry day and night from 18mo to allow us to travel.
Great question about the prick test for allergies. My perspective is that the 'adjuvant' is as important as the 'allergen' when stuff crosses the skin. So an allergy test doesn't have adjuvant, so the body shouldn't pay attention unless it's genuinely allergic.
She gets hives when tree nut oil is rubbed on the skin and had lip swelling after eating nuts which prompted investigation and diagnosis. ... I'm not sure she's had an anaphylactic response
I hope for her sake she never does. It's hard to know whether that's something she'll grow out of or not. A lot of children can have oral swelling to allergens that don't cause anaphylactic responses but they grow out of them (I had that to fish until I was about six), but some can obviously have oral swelling to allergens that do cause anaphylactic responses. Hives can also be a symptom of both allergies and intolerances.
In short, I don't know. I'll keep an eye out in the literature and will share anything I find! And I hope your friend's child grows out of it. :)
RE washing the baby, I wash my baby daily since she was about 4 months. She’s a chubby bubby and if I don’t wash out her rolls she gets a red rash in there. I only use water though no soap - do you think this has a negative impact on the skin barrier or it’s the soap etc which are actually damaging?
My third baby had amazing rolls until she grew a neck! When the skin is 'occluded' (meaning that water can't move away from it), it can get irritated, whether that's from rolls, a plaster, or a diaper
Soap's always a problem, but as the baby gets older, it looks like the effect of water on the skin barrier gets less. This depends on the amount of time the skin is in the water. If the skin gets really hydrated in the water, then the folds will be wetter for longer as the water comes back out, even if you dry them well at the time.
It's the sort of thing I'd test. Try wiping out the rolls with a damp cloth and then a dry cloth for a week or so and see if the rash gets better, worse, or stays the same. You'll then know how much you need to do to keep her comfortable. :)
Loving this topic! The case of food allergy that intrigues me is the daughter of a friend's relative who previously had no allergies, became suddenly allergic to tree nuts at 3 yrs old (having been "regularly" eating all sorts of nuts") and they /I think the trigger might have been eating a large (like half a block - 250g?) amount of marzipan. Would the delivery system of a lot of mechanically ground up almonds along with a lot of sugar and other UPF ingredients have prompted the immune system to be unusually vigilant of the GI System on that occasion? Is there any rationale for this theory?
Oh and also, we know that sugar consumption long-term is linked to allergy development, but I can't find evidence that a single massive overconsumption might be involved in allergic sensitisation... It's possible that it could have contributed, but given Greg's experience without it, I suspect it's not required...
I can't find good evidence on this at all. The conventional wisdom is that you can't become 'allergic' to a food but you can become 'intolerant' after overconsumption.
Greg experienced something similar when he ate LOADS (and I mean kilos) of carrots. and of peanuts (at different times). After a year or so without them, he was able to eat them again. The signs seemed allergic (not anaphylactic though). For both of these, there were no particular GI irritants that he'd consumed.
Does your friend's daughter have an anaphylactic-type reaction? Or hives and diarrhoea?
Such a great question, I loved that burrow into the literature!
I really enjoyed that! Thank you for the conversation.
Once you have allergies, is there any way to reverse the process? Is there a way to diminish the response, as it doesn't seem possible for me to avoiding allergens such as trees and grasses? If I am plagued with seasonal allergies and asthma, is there an avenue to restore balance to the system? I'd love your insights on this.
That is a million-dollar question.
In terms of management, a really key thing is removing allergens from the mucosa as much as possible, which is why nasal lavage is useful, especially before sleep. And you don't want to be very allergic for a lot of the time, so regular consistent antihistamine use is very important too.
You're asking about how to regain tolerance, though. I don't know how it happens, though I know it can. I used to be very allergic to horses (I was very allergic to all animals, which sucks if you want to be a veterinarian). I spent two summers running a horse-trekking business in Iceland. The first, I had to be on antihistamines all the time. The second, I tapered my antihistamines and, for some reason, my allergy went and never recurred. But it was very specific to horses - I'm still allergic to cats!
It could have been a microbiome thing that helped - at the time, I was spending all my time outside working with animals in a very different microbiological environment from that I was used to. Fermented foods seem to reduce allergic response: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213453022001896
It also might have been an exposure thing. Similarly, I'm allergic to rabbits, but I become tolerant to my own. And when I'm not continually exposed to them, I lose that tolerance. So coming back from travelling, I was allergic again to the same rabbits I had when I left, but the allergies diminished and disappeared over time. That's tricky with seasonal allergies.
Do you know what you're allergic to? You can have an allergen panel response test to see. You could then try very controlled small-dose exposure in the fall and winter to see if that reduces your response in the summer?
Thanks Guen, The mysteries of the body...we know so little about the wonders of the thing we call our Self!
I've run through some of the current research but it seems we don't know much about remediation in the context of allergies. I had scratch tests when I was younger but I should get them done again. My strongest reactions come from grasses and trees (and cats - subversive little creatures!), so micro-dosing is hard as the trees spaff all over the place with little regard for my sensitivities. I just don't like taking antihistamines daily for months at a time (or any pharm. interventions). My guess is that there's a pathway for improvement, because our other systems are plastic and can be improved, but we haven't cracked that nut yet. Much of the focus I found was on strengthening immune systems which, albeit connected, feels like a parallel system; but that's just my lay hunch.
Crazy with your horses and bunnies! Proof of concept for recovery, but hard to pin down the method.
My dear friend, who is an arborist and urban planner, mentioned that there's a gender imbalance - 'biological sexism' - in urban trees. He explained that many of the trees that are planted are male because they are less messy, not producing fruit and tend to grow faster. This results in strong competition for the females and crazy pollen release - horny as. (Allergy-Free Gardening: The Revolutionary Guide to Healthy Landscaping, Tom Ogren, 2000). Of course, many trees are hermaphrodites, so perhaps at best a contributing factor.
I hadn't thought about the male tree bias! Thanks for sharing!
Agreed - the body usually finds ways to fix itself unless something is getting in the way. I think the seasonality may be working against you here, so I wonder whether you can use the in-between-pollen time to try some exposure therapy. I bet you can buy types of pollen and try microdosing in between times. I've heard that eating local honey or pollen from bees ('bee bread') may help, which would suggest that you might be able to get some tolerance through a different exposure route?
Thanks for that. Yes, I've heard about the bees as well and eat a lot of local honey (I think Poland's has some of the best in the world!). I've only seen bee pollen here, but I'd love to try the bee bread. It looks great! True that my allergies are less aggressive in the tropics.
I've never tried a neti pot before but it looks like fun. I've known about them because I lived in India for a while, but for some reason never really found my way to trying one. I think I'll go with neti pots and bee bread this year (sounds like a book :-)
:D
Washing out the nose has such a rapid effect on allergic symptoms. When your nose is running all the time, it feels like the mucus should be removing the allergens quickly, but washing is far more effective.
A colleague used to work in the Middle East. She saw people washing sand out of their noses by gulping water into their mouths and squirting it through their nose.
My partner and I spent an evening trying to replicate this. We gulped water with our heads in all sorts of positions.
I managed to get an unconvincing drop of water out of my nose.
My partner turned to me with an expression of doom. "Guen, I've lost the last gulp of water somewhere inside my head. I don't know where it's gone."
Two hours later, the water suddenly poured from his nose, out of the sinus he'd accidentally filled...
Haha...that's a great story. I'd love to learn how to do that. I think I'm going to try to practice that one.
I have a long history of experimenting with myself with the aim of understanding and self-improvement. Not long ago, after considering the structure of my dog's back feet, I wondered if we weren't meant to be walking on the balls of our feet as well, with our heels elevated; it seemed to me that the calves would store more potential energy and the elevated heel would offer more bounce. I walked and jogged every day for about two weeks before I ran out of steam. I still think it's a good idea, but probably would need to be trained like that from childhood. I wonder how that would alter mobility if someone trained that way their entire life.
I'm glad to know that! My mom seemed to think that ec was a total flop (null hypothesis "babies can't learn not to pee on the floor" confirmed) but I had a great time and I swear I could feel the appreciation of his pelvic floor muscles, though I didn't know there was data to confirm that.
Do you think your kids were particularly prepared for daycare because of the culturally informed way you raised them?
Thanks for the explanation! I've been kind of anxious about allergy testing.
EC helps them learn how to fully void their bladder and empty their bowel at a much younger age, so seems to help them toilet train without the leaking every half hour or so. Definitely worth doing in any amount. :)
I have no idea about the preparation for daycare. To be honest, it wasn't financially feasible for me to stay home, not did I want to, and in many parts of the world, even very young children spend many hours a day with people who are not their parents. Us humans are very good at justifying the choices that we have to make! :D
Oooh that's fascinating! I'll share that with Greg and we'll have a look in the literature! Give us a few days... 😊
What about breastmilk baths? We've been doing then once a week
Wow, you clearly make more breast milk than I ever did! I didn't even make enough to feed them! :D
There's evidence for breast milk's immunological effects in various skin conditions - diaper dermatitis and eczema. I've used it for conjunctivitis.
I'd use it on damaged skin and it might benefit healthy skin, especially if a child has eczema in other places. I'm not sure how much benefit you'd get on completely healthy skin. I'd be more inclined to use the breastmilk neat on lesions though, rather than diluting it.
Once-weekly bathing of any type, especially in an older baby, is unlikely to harm the skin. But if I had a baby with dry skin or eczema, I'd be inclined to skip the whole-body bathing and apply breastmilk topically.
Hope that helps!
Oh yes, I'm an overproducer and I donate, too. I found articles about breastmilk baths and I follow the directions there and they also quote a study about them being good for eczema. My baby is fine for now but I just don't want to throw away the leftover milk from feedings (I directly nurse but husband does one night feeding and I'm also back at work). We also do a regular bath once a week. We used to do once a week with water only as a newborn.
I occasionally spray my baby (not intentionally), not sure if that counts as applying milk directly to skin. She's not a fan
Wow that's amazing! I totally see why you don't want to throw them away - and this seems a reasonable use!
I'm giggling at your last comment and remembering trying to spray milk into my toddlers eyes, with her squinting and opening her mouth in the hope it would go in there!
What about breastmilk baths? We do those once a week
This is so interesting! I can definitely attest that ec helps with diaper rash. I wasn't a super successful ecer--my baby peed often in diapers and often on the floor--but he never got diaper rash and he basically decided to switch to toileting himself. So I'd highly reccomend any mother try ec because even failure is pretty great.
However I am sure a big reason babies are put in diapers is to go to childcare. Even little spurts of diaper free time require a caretaker who had some degree of familiarity and chill.
This may be a dumb question, but is the prick test for allergies a little counterproductive?
There's enough evidence now to suggest that, for lowered risk of bladder and bowel problems, 'successful' EC means any EC. I totally agree! There's no point setting a very high bar, because just doing some gives so many benefits.
Childcare is a challenge, though my daughter's nursery lead was the one who suggested we stopped nappies when she was 18mo or so, before we thought we could. And the others, who went to daycare from aged 1, didn't seem to suffer a setback. My youngest had to be dry day and night from 18mo to allow us to travel.
Great question about the prick test for allergies. My perspective is that the 'adjuvant' is as important as the 'allergen' when stuff crosses the skin. So an allergy test doesn't have adjuvant, so the body shouldn't pay attention unless it's genuinely allergic.
She gets hives when tree nut oil is rubbed on the skin and had lip swelling after eating nuts which prompted investigation and diagnosis. ... I'm not sure she's had an anaphylactic response
I hope for her sake she never does. It's hard to know whether that's something she'll grow out of or not. A lot of children can have oral swelling to allergens that don't cause anaphylactic responses but they grow out of them (I had that to fish until I was about six), but some can obviously have oral swelling to allergens that do cause anaphylactic responses. Hives can also be a symptom of both allergies and intolerances.
In short, I don't know. I'll keep an eye out in the literature and will share anything I find! And I hope your friend's child grows out of it. :)
RE washing the baby, I wash my baby daily since she was about 4 months. She’s a chubby bubby and if I don’t wash out her rolls she gets a red rash in there. I only use water though no soap - do you think this has a negative impact on the skin barrier or it’s the soap etc which are actually damaging?
My third baby had amazing rolls until she grew a neck! When the skin is 'occluded' (meaning that water can't move away from it), it can get irritated, whether that's from rolls, a plaster, or a diaper
Soap's always a problem, but as the baby gets older, it looks like the effect of water on the skin barrier gets less. This depends on the amount of time the skin is in the water. If the skin gets really hydrated in the water, then the folds will be wetter for longer as the water comes back out, even if you dry them well at the time.
It's the sort of thing I'd test. Try wiping out the rolls with a damp cloth and then a dry cloth for a week or so and see if the rash gets better, worse, or stays the same. You'll then know how much you need to do to keep her comfortable. :)
Loving this topic! The case of food allergy that intrigues me is the daughter of a friend's relative who previously had no allergies, became suddenly allergic to tree nuts at 3 yrs old (having been "regularly" eating all sorts of nuts") and they /I think the trigger might have been eating a large (like half a block - 250g?) amount of marzipan. Would the delivery system of a lot of mechanically ground up almonds along with a lot of sugar and other UPF ingredients have prompted the immune system to be unusually vigilant of the GI System on that occasion? Is there any rationale for this theory?
Oh and also, we know that sugar consumption long-term is linked to allergy development, but I can't find evidence that a single massive overconsumption might be involved in allergic sensitisation... It's possible that it could have contributed, but given Greg's experience without it, I suspect it's not required...
I can't find good evidence on this at all. The conventional wisdom is that you can't become 'allergic' to a food but you can become 'intolerant' after overconsumption.
Greg experienced something similar when he ate LOADS (and I mean kilos) of carrots. and of peanuts (at different times). After a year or so without them, he was able to eat them again. The signs seemed allergic (not anaphylactic though). For both of these, there were no particular GI irritants that he'd consumed.
Does your friend's daughter have an anaphylactic-type reaction? Or hives and diarrhoea?
Such a great question, I loved that burrow into the literature!